Which Anti Virus Works Best With Vista

keepout@yahoo.com.invalid · Jul 9, 2009

On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:30:46 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote:

>What a very strange response. I didn't notice any "adult controls" in
>TrendMicro Internet Security and I don't know why they would apply. It's
>not an "adult" game. It's a MUD. I was running MudMaster 2K6, connecting
>to . I shouldn't have any "adult" restrictions turned on
>unless you're saying it's a feature of TrendMicro and it treats everyone
>like a child by default, and I wouldn't need to take it up with my parents
>since I've been an adult for many years. Yes the game is configured
>correctly, it works just fine without TrendMicro installed. Apparently 
I have no idea what your settings are. I offered an option that you might not
have known about. If you're running Vista, it also has a ton of adult controls
that limit things. But blaming trend for this problem makes no sense since it
sounds like a configuration problem somewhere.

>TrendMicro was not configured correctly which is what makes it a really bad
>program. It cut off my game without warning even with the game program in
>it's "trusted programs" list and gave me no indication of how to configure
>it to work. It's like someone getting a new OS and having to figure out
>they need to change a registry key before they can view their picture files.
You sure it wasn't a screen saver doing the killing ? I watch my screen saver
kick in all the time on SOME games. For some reason, I guess it just doesn't
tell the machine that something's running.
The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with killing it's operation
after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic. Or something configured
wrong.
All trusted does is IGNORE that program.

xfile · Jul 9, 2009

> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to 
> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!

I have no comment on Norton or other (AV) programs and utilities, but I
don't see any relationship between a removal utility and a "defective"
product.

I personally see it as a "thoughtful" tool so users can use it as a last
resort which otherwise wouldn't be possible. A few application providers
have also followed the same by providing a removal utility just in case
something went terribly wrong (which is a case-by-case scenario), and it's
far better than "format and re-install".

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eKK43PMAKHA.4496@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> I ran Norton up until the 2002 versions (home products). After that there
> were just tooooo many problems on my computers, and on computers I
> repaired for others.
>
> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>
> --
>
> Richard Urban
> Microsoft MVP
> Windows Desktop Experience
>
>
> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:u32pDgLAKHA.2604@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> >"but anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>> >skeptical"
>>
>> This is an obvious exaggeration, since that would mean from 1989 to
>> today, and until 2000, all of the successful tech that I knew had Norton
>> (Symantec) on the top of their list as the best.
>>
>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a product
>>> even if you personally never use columbian beans so you haven't blown it
>>> up yet.
>>
>> But it did not "blow up", another obvious exaggeration, because it did
>> not freeze up and lock up your computer, or fail use as a whole. Instead
>> it gummed up on that specific program and only restricted that program.
>>
>> It occurs to me that maybe it found another security risk with that
>> program that McAfee did not catch. Or maybe, as with Cryptic Studios,
>> the software producer had something in their script that conflicts with
>> something that Trend settings protect. Or maybe that program needed an
>> additional porting that you did not catch and that the software publisher
>> did not supply to Trend Micro. This happens all the time.
>>
>> In the current PC market, there is no way to get completely seamless
>> operations with ever producers driver, scripts or program at the same
>> time. You can get close if intercompany relations and communications are
>> good, but not perfect.
>>
>> Again, I just passed on facts, and then said what I prefer to use, and
>> what I have used. Each of my posts have been mainly experience and
>> facts. I am not making a plug or pledge for anyone, just offering
>> information based on reproducable research and testing.
>>
>> ShadoShyrke
>> (AKA James Walker)
>>
>>
>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>> news:u972Z7KAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> If TrendMicro doesn't "focus on home", they should tell Best Buy to stop
>>> installing it on new PCs with Vista Home Premium.
>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a product
>>> even if you personally never use columbian beans so you haven't blown it
>>> up yet.
>>>
>>> Again I said "I fortunately haven't had to work with Norton products
>>> lately", so hopefully for their sake it doesn't suck anymore, but anyone
>>> who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still skeptical. The
>>> last time I heard of someone running Norton it was conflicting with
>>> another program. We got new PCs for work from IBM with Norton installed.
>>> We uninstalled it and installed McAfee.
>>>
>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> newsF74D9A4-0915-45BC-B762-F5DBE4B615CF@microsoft.com...
>>>> Um,
>>>>
>>>> You do understand that I am a techie. I make my living on supporting
>>>> both home and corporate users and environments.
>>>>
>>>> Something to note, TrendMicro focuses on business, not home. Norton
>>>> and Symantec are the same, Norton is their home product and Symantec
>>>> Securities is how they market their business products.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the techies that I work with in the industry do not talk down
>>>> Norton's. The people that talk down Norton's are mainly gamers and
>>>> game companies. Yet, since the 2003 versions, I have not seen the
>>>> issues that most of those companies and gamers complain about. In
>>>> testing on 16 different machine configurations, WoW, Everquest2,
>>>> Lineage2, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires 2 & 3, Two Worlds, and
>>>> even Maple Story had no issues. Game that had issues: City of Heroes,
>>>> who's publisher knew there was a script change needed but prefered to
>>>> tell users to turn off their AV instead of fixing their script. It
>>>> saved them programming cost.
>>>>
>>>> TrendMicro does not suck, it just did not suit your needs and your
>>>> specific setup.
>>>>
>>>> ShadoShryke
>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>> 15 years of Computer Support (home and business)
>>>> MSPP Registered, A+ Cert, MS Office Cert, BSIT: Information Systems
>>>> Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:u0zzboKAKHA.5780@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>
>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:2C9CF229-976A-4623-8716-39E3CEB2E73D@microsoft.com...
>>>>>> There are a number of companies/organizations that review AV programs
>>>>>> for overall efficiency, reliability, memory use, guarantees and cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might find it interesting that Norton and TrendMicro have been in
>>>>>> the top three for 4-5 years running now. Microsoft made it into the
>>>>>> top 10 this past year with One Live Care this past year on two
>>>>>> registers. McAfee has dropped to number 5 or lower on 4 different
>>>>>> registers in the past two years.
>>>>>>
>>>>> TrendMicro sucks.
>>>>> My new laptop from Best Buy came with TrendMicro Internet Security
>>>>> installed (with a free 6 month subscription, after that you pay for
>>>>> updates).
>>>>> I tried to play a game on the internet and it let me play for a few
>>>>> minutes then disconnected me. I added the game program to it's
>>>>> "trusted programs" and it still disconnected me. I uninstalled it and
>>>>> installed McAfee (provided at no extra cost from my ISP) and haven't
>>>>> had any issues since.
>>>>>
>>>>> I fortunately haven't had to mess with any Norton software lately but
>>>>> it's still the number one answer when you ask a techie "what AV
>>>>> program is most likely to conflict with other programs?" AV programs
>>>>> are useless if they're constantly asking the user what they should
>>>>> allow or if they're preventing a program you want to run from running
>>>>> properly.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

ShadoShryke · Jul 9, 2009

>> For US Army Signal Corps, McAfee use to be the most trusted. Not in the 
>> last 5 years though.
>>
> You know this how?/

US Army Signal Corps. 6 years. Active, 1996-2001. Army National Guard-
Personnel Division - 2002 - 2005.
Army Air Force Exchange Services HR Tech 2008, US AF Family Readiness Data
Resource Center Support 2009

Would you like more? I have been in the industry, both Civilian and
military, direct hire or Contractor, since 1994.

I graduated from high school when Apple IIe and TRS-80 were the most common
system, and Commodore had not even launched the Amiga line yet. I learned
Programming of Basic on a TRS-80 and learned to test circuit boards on XT.

And to think that I intended to be a liberal artist working my music,
writing and drawing/painting/pastels, and a horticultural expert. I guess
the fact that my dad was working systems for the US Navy from the 60s until
the early 80s rubbed off on me. Now I spend my time supporting,
consulting, and training people and companies. I just decided that the
life of programming was not for me because I hate scouring lines of code for
hours on end. :: chuckles ::

The years in the Army triggered my interest in Information Security so I
find it interesting.

"Word of Mouth" means repeating other peoples comments or feelings without
documented proof. Now, if you like, I can provide you with the McAfee
archives and forums links, as well as various tech forums, where people have
had issues with McAfee. I can even provide you with links to support for
Comcast, who provided McAfee as their AV choice so that you can look over
the fact that over the past 5 years they have had increasing issues with the
McAfee AV.

No, I am not saying that McAfee is bad stuff, it has just not performed up
to par by most SECURITY SPECIALIZED GROUPS standards. It still ranks as one
of the most retail popular, but then so does McDonalds, and that just proves
that popular does not always mean best for you.

Just like, despite what some of thier commercials imply, Apple is not virus
or worry free, which I also know by 5.5 year of experience supporting.

So, now that you have my qualifications, are you satified?

ShadoShyrke
(AKA James Walker)

"Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
news:e4eckdNAKHA.4336@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:672DA8F8-C798-4EAE-8B35-3932B363540F@microsoft.com...
>>I guess you did not bother to read the About Us section of that site:
>>
>> About Us
>> For over a decade, ICSA Labs, an independent division of Verizon
>> Business, has been the security industry's central authority for
>> research, intelligence, and certification testing of products. ICSA Labs
>> sets standards for information security products and certifies over 95%
>> of the installed base of anti-virus, firewall, IPSec VPN, cryptography,
>> SSL VPN, network IPS, anti-spyware and PC firewall products commonly
>> deployed in the world today.
>>
> I did read the about us section. That's why I said they're a division of
> Verizon, which sounds like something which could make them biased. I
> didn't see anywhere that says what ICSA stands for.
>
>> What this shows is that McAfee failed the monthly Virus Detection test
>> that the lab runs: i.e. it did not detect all of the virus/malware that
>> are required for a ICSA certificate, which means that a number of
>> organizations, including state and federal, will not trust it.
>>
> That makes no sense, since you say they failed a test "required for a ICSA
> certificate". I guess you missed the link in my response to the page
> where they say McAfee software is certfiied. That also doesn't answer my
> question as to what "fail" means. What sort of virus/malware did it not
> detect? Was it tested using the latest updates?
>
>> For US Army Signal Corps, McAfee use to be the most trusted. Not in the
>> last 5 years though.
>>
> You know this how?/
>
>> It seems that you are just arguing and not debating. You have given no
>> basis for your reasoning other than word of mouth suppositions because
>> you could not work one program's network connection.
>>
> I'm not sure what you're referring to with "word of mouth suppositions",
> since all I mentioned was that from my personal experience as well as
> everyone I know, McAfee hasn't caused any problems and TrendMicro has.
>
>> I can appreciate your own opinion, but that is most of what it seems you
>> are passing on. As you have proven, I could pass you links with reviews
>> from independent labs all over the world, and probably even he ISSA, and
>> you would stick to your guns over one program. That is your right and
>> your choice.
>>
> If all you care about is "links with reviews", here's one.
>
> I'd bet every AV software has positive and negative reviews from various
> sources.
> My first concern is whether the AV program prevents productivity. Once it
> passes that test, we'll look into what sort of malware it's able to detect
> and block. TrendMicro failed.
> Productivity test is simple:
> Does it prevent other valid programs (besides other AV programs) from
> functioning properly?
> Does it ask users questions they wouldn't necessarily know the answer to,
> or shouldn't need to care about?
>
>> Personally, I will stick with what I know from a very diverse experience
>> over the past 25 years and from the techs and developers that I work with
>> on a daily basis.
>>
>> Have a great weekend.
>>
>> ShadoShyrke
>> (AKA James Walker)
>>
>>
>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>> news:udOOLEMAKHA.4168@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>
>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:530DB2A6-C4D0-4FED-A7E1-949A3BDFD2E5@microsoft.com...
>>>> To support my assertions on the possibilities of McAfee not paying
>>>> attention or catching something, please look over this information from
>>>> ICSA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This has gone on for three years now with McAfee. The user interface
>>>> is easier that some other AVs and Security software, but the actually
>>>> effectiveness of the work done has to be up to par.
>>>>
>>>> ShadoShyrke
>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>
>>> That link means nothing to me. It says McAfee failed some test from a
>>> division of Verizon with no reason given. The conclusion is Verizon
>>> hates McAfee for some unknown reason, though according to their other
>>> page (http://www.icsalabs.com/icsa/product.php?tid=dfgdf$gdhkkjk-kkkk)
>>> they certified it anyway?
>>> I don't see anywhere that says what ICSA stands for either.
>>> If you're trying to debate, try something more than "some unknown and
>>> likely biased company claims your product failed a test".
>>>
>>
>
>

ShadoShryke · Jul 9, 2009

Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the program
has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block corruption,
or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be able to use the
uninstall.

Now, as for the one that Mr Urban is mentioning from 2002, yes, there was a
line of code that was in an initial patch that caused an issue with 2002.
Yes, he is right, and I personally experienced that. I also saw that within
2 weeks of this glitch showing up, they had the removal tool and a free
download of the fixed insall version available.

I still have McAfee on two machines, one physical and one Virtual. I hated
McAfee 2005 because the virus updates failed more than they succeeded.
Unlike Symantec, McAfee did not issue an apology when their updates were
weeks later than everyone else and their updates failed regularly. It took
them 4 months to fix it, and it was even worse in mixed networks (Apple and
Windows Machines). For that reason, two companies that I was contracting
too asked for alternative and I suggested NAV, Symantec Corporate Security
(same core as NAV but with a Client-Server format) and TrendMicro. One
group chose NAV and the other took TrendMicro and both were happy with the
results.

I just like people making truly informed decisions, no matter their choice.
Just like if I sold them a car, I would tell them if the tires were worn or
if the car had been tuned up in years. I did not make the product, I only
test, sell and support them.

To me, that is fun.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:umSX7yOAKHA.4336@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>
> I have no comment on Norton or other (AV) programs and utilities, but I
> don't see any relationship between a removal utility and a "defective"
> product.
>
> I personally see it as a "thoughtful" tool so users can use it as a last
> resort which otherwise wouldn't be possible. A few application providers
> have also followed the same by providing a removal utility just in case
> something went terribly wrong (which is a case-by-case scenario), and it's
> far better than "format and re-install".
>
>
> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eKK43PMAKHA.4496@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> I ran Norton up until the 2002 versions (home products). After that there
>> were just tooooo many problems on my computers, and on computers I
>> repaired for others.
>>
>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>
>> --
>>
>> Richard Urban
>> Microsoft MVP
>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>
>>
>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:u32pDgLAKHA.2604@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> >"but anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>> >skeptical"
>>>
>>> This is an obvious exaggeration, since that would mean from 1989 to
>>> today, and until 2000, all of the successful tech that I knew had Norton
>>> (Symantec) on the top of their list as the best.
>>>
>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a product
>>>> even if you personally never use columbian beans so you haven't blown
>>>> it up yet.
>>>
>>> But it did not "blow up", another obvious exaggeration, because it did
>>> not freeze up and lock up your computer, or fail use as a whole. Instead
>>> it gummed up on that specific program and only restricted that program.
>>>
>>> It occurs to me that maybe it found another security risk with that
>>> program that McAfee did not catch. Or maybe, as with Cryptic Studios,
>>> the software producer had something in their script that conflicts with
>>> something that Trend settings protect. Or maybe that program needed an
>>> additional porting that you did not catch and that the software
>>> publisher did not supply to Trend Micro. This happens all the time.
>>>
>>> In the current PC market, there is no way to get completely seamless
>>> operations with ever producers driver, scripts or program at the same
>>> time. You can get close if intercompany relations and communications are
>>> good, but not perfect.
>>>
>>> Again, I just passed on facts, and then said what I prefer to use, and
>>> what I have used. Each of my posts have been mainly experience and
>>> facts. I am not making a plug or pledge for anyone, just offering
>>> information based on reproducable research and testing.
>>>
>>> ShadoShyrke
>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>
>>>
>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:u972Z7KAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> If TrendMicro doesn't "focus on home", they should tell Best Buy to
>>>> stop installing it on new PCs with Vista Home Premium.
>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a product
>>>> even if you personally never use columbian beans so you haven't blown
>>>> it up yet.
>>>>
>>>> Again I said "I fortunately haven't had to work with Norton products
>>>> lately", so hopefully for their sake it doesn't suck anymore, but
>>>> anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>> skeptical. The last time I heard of someone running Norton it was
>>>> conflicting with another program. We got new PCs for work from IBM with
>>>> Norton installed. We uninstalled it and installed McAfee.
>>>>
>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> newsF74D9A4-0915-45BC-B762-F5DBE4B615CF@microsoft.com...
>>>>> Um,
>>>>>
>>>>> You do understand that I am a techie. I make my living on supporting
>>>>> both home and corporate users and environments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something to note, TrendMicro focuses on business, not home. Norton
>>>>> and Symantec are the same, Norton is their home product and Symantec
>>>>> Securities is how they market their business products.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the techies that I work with in the industry do not talk down
>>>>> Norton's. The people that talk down Norton's are mainly gamers and
>>>>> game companies. Yet, since the 2003 versions, I have not seen the
>>>>> issues that most of those companies and gamers complain about. In
>>>>> testing on 16 different machine configurations, WoW, Everquest2,
>>>>> Lineage2, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires 2 & 3, Two Worlds, and
>>>>> even Maple Story had no issues. Game that had issues: City of
>>>>> Heroes, who's publisher knew there was a script change needed but
>>>>> prefered to tell users to turn off their AV instead of fixing their
>>>>> script. It saved them programming cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> TrendMicro does not suck, it just did not suit your needs and your
>>>>> specific setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> ShadoShryke
>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>> 15 years of Computer Support (home and business)
>>>>> MSPP Registered, A+ Cert, MS Office Cert, BSIT: Information Systems
>>>>> Security
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u0zzboKAKHA.5780@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:2C9CF229-976A-4623-8716-39E3CEB2E73D@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>> There are a number of companies/organizations that review AV
>>>>>>> programs for overall efficiency, reliability, memory use, guarantees
>>>>>>> and cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might find it interesting that Norton and TrendMicro have been
>>>>>>> in the top three for 4-5 years running now. Microsoft made it into
>>>>>>> the top 10 this past year with One Live Care this past year on two
>>>>>>> registers. McAfee has dropped to number 5 or lower on 4 different
>>>>>>> registers in the past two years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> TrendMicro sucks.
>>>>>> My new laptop from Best Buy came with TrendMicro Internet Security
>>>>>> installed (with a free 6 month subscription, after that you pay for
>>>>>> updates).
>>>>>> I tried to play a game on the internet and it let me play for a few
>>>>>> minutes then disconnected me. I added the game program to it's
>>>>>> "trusted programs" and it still disconnected me. I uninstalled it
>>>>>> and installed McAfee (provided at no extra cost from my ISP) and
>>>>>> haven't had any issues since.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I fortunately haven't had to mess with any Norton software lately but
>>>>>> it's still the number one answer when you ask a techie "what AV
>>>>>> program is most likely to conflict with other programs?" AV programs
>>>>>> are useless if they're constantly asking the user what they should
>>>>>> allow or if they're preventing a program you want to run from running
>>>>>> properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>

xfile · Jul 9, 2009

> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the program 
> has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block corruption,
> or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be able to use the
> uninstall.

Understood, and there are more possible causes for an uninstaller might not
work well or totally remove all components and/or registry entries which is
when a removal utility could be helpful.

As for the rest of your post, I have absolutely no questions for anyone's
experience or preference with regard to a 3rd party product, and for the
same reason, I never recommended nor bashed any 3rd party applications or
utilities on the net. My reply was to point out that a removal utility is
in fact to be helpful rather to be an indicator of a poor product.

"ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2CAD11EE-4906-4011-86FC-CE19B8ED5E68@microsoft.com...
> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the program
> has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block corruption,
> or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be able to use the
> uninstall.
>
> Now, as for the one that Mr Urban is mentioning from 2002, yes, there was
> a line of code that was in an initial patch that caused an issue with
> 2002. Yes, he is right, and I personally experienced that. I also saw
> that within 2 weeks of this glitch showing up, they had the removal tool
> and a free download of the fixed insall version available.
>
> I still have McAfee on two machines, one physical and one Virtual. I
> hated McAfee 2005 because the virus updates failed more than they
> succeeded. Unlike Symantec, McAfee did not issue an apology when their
> updates were weeks later than everyone else and their updates failed
> regularly. It took them 4 months to fix it, and it was even worse in
> mixed networks (Apple and Windows Machines). For that reason, two
> companies that I was contracting too asked for alternative and I suggested
> NAV, Symantec Corporate Security (same core as NAV but with a
> Client-Server format) and TrendMicro. One group chose NAV and the other
> took TrendMicro and both were happy with the results.
>
> I just like people making truly informed decisions, no matter their
> choice. Just like if I sold them a car, I would tell them if the tires
> were worn or if the car had been tuned up in years. I did not make the
> product, I only test, sell and support them.
>
> To me, that is fun.
>
> ShadoShryke
> (AKA James Walker)
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:umSX7yOAKHA.4336@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>
>> I have no comment on Norton or other (AV) programs and utilities, but I
>> don't see any relationship between a removal utility and a "defective"
>> product.
>>
>> I personally see it as a "thoughtful" tool so users can use it as a last
>> resort which otherwise wouldn't be possible. A few application providers
>> have also followed the same by providing a removal utility just in case
>> something went terribly wrong (which is a case-by-case scenario), and
>> it's far better than "format and re-install".
>>
>>
>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:eKK43PMAKHA.4496@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>> I ran Norton up until the 2002 versions (home products). After that
>>> there were just tooooo many problems on my computers, and on computers I
>>> repaired for others.
>>>
>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>> Microsoft MVP
>>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>>
>>>
>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:u32pDgLAKHA.2604@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>> >"but anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>> >skeptical"
>>>>
>>>> This is an obvious exaggeration, since that would mean from 1989 to
>>>> today, and until 2000, all of the successful tech that I knew had
>>>> Norton (Symantec) on the top of their list as the best.
>>>>
>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>
>>>> But it did not "blow up", another obvious exaggeration, because it did
>>>> not freeze up and lock up your computer, or fail use as a whole.
>>>> Instead it gummed up on that specific program and only restricted that
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> It occurs to me that maybe it found another security risk with that
>>>> program that McAfee did not catch. Or maybe, as with Cryptic Studios,
>>>> the software producer had something in their script that conflicts with
>>>> something that Trend settings protect. Or maybe that program needed an
>>>> additional porting that you did not catch and that the software
>>>> publisher did not supply to Trend Micro. This happens all the time.
>>>>
>>>> In the current PC market, there is no way to get completely seamless
>>>> operations with ever producers driver, scripts or program at the same
>>>> time. You can get close if intercompany relations and communications
>>>> are good, but not perfect.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I just passed on facts, and then said what I prefer to use, and
>>>> what I have used. Each of my posts have been mainly experience and
>>>> facts. I am not making a plug or pledge for anyone, just offering
>>>> information based on reproducable research and testing.
>>>>
>>>> ShadoShyrke
>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:u972Z7KAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> If TrendMicro doesn't "focus on home", they should tell Best Buy to
>>>>> stop installing it on new PCs with Vista Home Premium.
>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again I said "I fortunately haven't had to work with Norton products
>>>>> lately", so hopefully for their sake it doesn't suck anymore, but
>>>>> anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>>> skeptical. The last time I heard of someone running Norton it was
>>>>> conflicting with another program. We got new PCs for work from IBM
>>>>> with Norton installed. We uninstalled it and installed McAfee.
>>>>>
>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> newsF74D9A4-0915-45BC-B762-F5DBE4B615CF@microsoft.com...
>>>>>> Um,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You do understand that I am a techie. I make my living on
>>>>>> supporting both home and corporate users and environments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something to note, TrendMicro focuses on business, not home.
>>>>>> Norton and Symantec are the same, Norton is their home product and
>>>>>> Symantec Securities is how they market their business products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of the techies that I work with in the industry do not talk down
>>>>>> Norton's. The people that talk down Norton's are mainly gamers and
>>>>>> game companies. Yet, since the 2003 versions, I have not seen the
>>>>>> issues that most of those companies and gamers complain about. In
>>>>>> testing on 16 different machine configurations, WoW, Everquest2,
>>>>>> Lineage2, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires 2 & 3, Two Worlds, and
>>>>>> even Maple Story had no issues. Game that had issues: City of
>>>>>> Heroes, who's publisher knew there was a script change needed but
>>>>>> prefered to tell users to turn off their AV instead of fixing their
>>>>>> script. It saved them programming cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TrendMicro does not suck, it just did not suit your needs and your
>>>>>> specific setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ShadoShryke
>>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>>> 15 years of Computer Support (home and business)
>>>>>> MSPP Registered, A+ Cert, MS Office Cert, BSIT: Information Systems
>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u0zzboKAKHA.5780@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:2C9CF229-976A-4623-8716-39E3CEB2E73D@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>>> There are a number of companies/organizations that review AV
>>>>>>>> programs for overall efficiency, reliability, memory use,
>>>>>>>> guarantees and cost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might find it interesting that Norton and TrendMicro have been
>>>>>>>> in the top three for 4-5 years running now. Microsoft made it
>>>>>>>> into the top 10 this past year with One Live Care this past year on
>>>>>>>> two registers. McAfee has dropped to number 5 or lower on 4
>>>>>>>> different registers in the past two years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TrendMicro sucks.
>>>>>>> My new laptop from Best Buy came with TrendMicro Internet Security
>>>>>>> installed (with a free 6 month subscription, after that you pay for
>>>>>>> updates).
>>>>>>> I tried to play a game on the internet and it let me play for a few
>>>>>>> minutes then disconnected me. I added the game program to it's
>>>>>>> "trusted programs" and it still disconnected me. I uninstalled it
>>>>>>> and installed McAfee (provided at no extra cost from my ISP) and
>>>>>>> haven't had any issues since.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I fortunately haven't had to mess with any Norton software lately
>>>>>>> but it's still the number one answer when you ask a techie "what AV
>>>>>>> program is most likely to conflict with other programs?" AV
>>>>>>> programs are useless if they're constantly asking the user what they
>>>>>>> should allow or if they're preventing a program you want to run from
>>>>>>> running properly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

xfile · Jul 9, 2009

Second thought, LOL

"...I never recommended nor bashed any 3rd party applications..." should be,

I "rarely" recommended unless it was really necessary, and as far as I can
remember, I don't bash any 3rd party utility or application.

"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uGjPonPAKHA.4376@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the
>> program has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block
>> corruption, or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be able
>> to use the uninstall.
>
> Understood, and there are more possible causes for an uninstaller might
> not work well or totally remove all components and/or registry entries
> which is when a removal utility could be helpful.
>
> As for the rest of your post, I have absolutely no questions for anyone's
> experience or preference with regard to a 3rd party product, and for the
> same reason, I never recommended nor bashed any 3rd party applications or
> utilities on the net. My reply was to point out that a removal utility is
> in fact to be helpful rather to be an indicator of a poor product.
>
>
> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2CAD11EE-4906-4011-86FC-CE19B8ED5E68@microsoft.com...
>> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the
>> program has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block
>> corruption, or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be able
>> to use the uninstall.
>>
>> Now, as for the one that Mr Urban is mentioning from 2002, yes, there was
>> a line of code that was in an initial patch that caused an issue with
>> 2002. Yes, he is right, and I personally experienced that. I also saw
>> that within 2 weeks of this glitch showing up, they had the removal tool
>> and a free download of the fixed insall version available.
>>
>> I still have McAfee on two machines, one physical and one Virtual. I
>> hated McAfee 2005 because the virus updates failed more than they
>> succeeded. Unlike Symantec, McAfee did not issue an apology when their
>> updates were weeks later than everyone else and their updates failed
>> regularly. It took them 4 months to fix it, and it was even worse in
>> mixed networks (Apple and Windows Machines). For that reason, two
>> companies that I was contracting too asked for alternative and I
>> suggested NAV, Symantec Corporate Security (same core as NAV but with a
>> Client-Server format) and TrendMicro. One group chose NAV and the other
>> took TrendMicro and both were happy with the results.
>>
>> I just like people making truly informed decisions, no matter their
>> choice. Just like if I sold them a car, I would tell them if the tires
>> were worn or if the car had been tuned up in years. I did not make the
>> product, I only test, sell and support them.
>>
>> To me, that is fun.
>>
>> ShadoShryke
>> (AKA James Walker)
>>
>>
>> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:umSX7yOAKHA.4336@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>>
>>> I have no comment on Norton or other (AV) programs and utilities, but I
>>> don't see any relationship between a removal utility and a "defective"
>>> product.
>>>
>>> I personally see it as a "thoughtful" tool so users can use it as a last
>>> resort which otherwise wouldn't be possible. A few application
>>> providers have also followed the same by providing a removal utility
>>> just in case something went terribly wrong (which is a case-by-case
>>> scenario), and it's far better than "format and re-install".
>>>
>>>
>>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eKK43PMAKHA.4496@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>> I ran Norton up until the 2002 versions (home products). After that
>>>> there were just tooooo many problems on my computers, and on computers
>>>> I repaired for others.
>>>>
>>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban
>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:u32pDgLAKHA.2604@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>> >"but anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>>> >skeptical"
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an obvious exaggeration, since that would mean from 1989 to
>>>>> today, and until 2000, all of the successful tech that I knew had
>>>>> Norton (Symantec) on the top of their list as the best.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it did not "blow up", another obvious exaggeration, because it did
>>>>> not freeze up and lock up your computer, or fail use as a whole.
>>>>> Instead it gummed up on that specific program and only restricted that
>>>>> program.
>>>>>
>>>>> It occurs to me that maybe it found another security risk with that
>>>>> program that McAfee did not catch. Or maybe, as with Cryptic Studios,
>>>>> the software producer had something in their script that conflicts
>>>>> with something that Trend settings protect. Or maybe that program
>>>>> needed an additional porting that you did not catch and that the
>>>>> software publisher did not supply to Trend Micro. This happens all
>>>>> the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the current PC market, there is no way to get completely seamless
>>>>> operations with ever producers driver, scripts or program at the same
>>>>> time. You can get close if intercompany relations and communications
>>>>> are good, but not perfect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, I just passed on facts, and then said what I prefer to use, and
>>>>> what I have used. Each of my posts have been mainly experience and
>>>>> facts. I am not making a plug or pledge for anyone, just offering
>>>>> information based on reproducable research and testing.
>>>>>
>>>>> ShadoShyrke
>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u972Z7KAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> If TrendMicro doesn't "focus on home", they should tell Best Buy to
>>>>>> stop installing it on new PCs with Vista Home Premium.
>>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again I said "I fortunately haven't had to work with Norton products
>>>>>> lately", so hopefully for their sake it doesn't suck anymore, but
>>>>>> anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>>>> skeptical. The last time I heard of someone running Norton it was
>>>>>> conflicting with another program. We got new PCs for work from IBM
>>>>>> with Norton installed. We uninstalled it and installed McAfee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> newsF74D9A4-0915-45BC-B762-F5DBE4B615CF@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>> Um,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do understand that I am a techie. I make my living on
>>>>>>> supporting both home and corporate users and environments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something to note, TrendMicro focuses on business, not home. Norton
>>>>>>> and Symantec are the same, Norton is their home product and Symantec
>>>>>>> Securities is how they market their business products.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most of the techies that I work with in the industry do not talk
>>>>>>> down Norton's. The people that talk down Norton's are mainly
>>>>>>> gamers and game companies. Yet, since the 2003 versions, I have not
>>>>>>> seen the issues that most of those companies and gamers complain
>>>>>>> about. In testing on 16 different machine configurations, WoW,
>>>>>>> Everquest2, Lineage2, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires 2 & 3, Two
>>>>>>> Worlds, and even Maple Story had no issues. Game that had issues:
>>>>>>> City of Heroes, who's publisher knew there was a script change
>>>>>>> needed but prefered to tell users to turn off their AV instead of
>>>>>>> fixing their script. It saved them programming cost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TrendMicro does not suck, it just did not suit your needs and your
>>>>>>> specific setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ShadoShryke
>>>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>>>> 15 years of Computer Support (home and business)
>>>>>>> MSPP Registered, A+ Cert, MS Office Cert, BSIT: Information Systems
>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u0zzboKAKHA.5780@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:2C9CF229-976A-4623-8716-39E3CEB2E73D@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>>>> There are a number of companies/organizations that review AV
>>>>>>>>> programs for overall efficiency, reliability, memory use,
>>>>>>>>> guarantees and cost.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You might find it interesting that Norton and TrendMicro have been
>>>>>>>>> in the top three for 4-5 years running now. Microsoft made it
>>>>>>>>> into the top 10 this past year with One Live Care this past year
>>>>>>>>> on two registers. McAfee has dropped to number 5 or lower on 4
>>>>>>>>> different registers in the past two years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TrendMicro sucks.
>>>>>>>> My new laptop from Best Buy came with TrendMicro Internet Security
>>>>>>>> installed (with a free 6 month subscription, after that you pay for
>>>>>>>> updates).
>>>>>>>> I tried to play a game on the internet and it let me play for a few
>>>>>>>> minutes then disconnected me. I added the game program to it's
>>>>>>>> "trusted programs" and it still disconnected me. I uninstalled it
>>>>>>>> and installed McAfee (provided at no extra cost from my ISP) and
>>>>>>>> haven't had any issues since.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I fortunately haven't had to mess with any Norton software lately
>>>>>>>> but it's still the number one answer when you ask a techie "what AV
>>>>>>>> program is most likely to conflict with other programs?" AV
>>>>>>>> programs are useless if they're constantly asking the user what
>>>>>>>> they should allow or if they're preventing a program you want to
>>>>>>>> run from running properly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

I added the last part for the benefit of the other readers, since you seem
to have a good balanced head on your shoulders.

Yeah, I rarely bash as well, if ever. I know what it takes to make one of
these programs work with all the situations they face, so I realize that
every application or tool is going to have an issue now and then, and that
patches will, not might, be required for long term survivability. I also
believe that you never put full faith in a product if you are on a "trial"
version, because you are not going to get all the support and patches that
are guaranteed.

Cheers

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%23AMiG3PAKHA.4432@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Second thought, LOL
>
> "...I never recommended nor bashed any 3rd party applications..." should
> be,
>
> I "rarely" recommended unless it was really necessary, and as far as I can
> remember, I don't bash any 3rd party utility or application.
>
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:uGjPonPAKHA.4376@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the
>>> program has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block
>>> corruption, or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be
>>> able to use the uninstall.
>>
>> Understood, and there are more possible causes for an uninstaller might
>> not work well or totally remove all components and/or registry entries
>> which is when a removal utility could be helpful.
>>
>> As for the rest of your post, I have absolutely no questions for anyone's
>> experience or preference with regard to a 3rd party product, and for the
>> same reason, I never recommended nor bashed any 3rd party applications or
>> utilities on the net. My reply was to point out that a removal utility
>> is in fact to be helpful rather to be an indicator of a poor product.
>>
>>
>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:2CAD11EE-4906-4011-86FC-CE19B8ED5E68@microsoft.com...
>>> Two major CAD program providers have done this, mainly because the
>>> program has so many key files and registry entries that if a HDD block
>>> corruption, or other glitch, or patch issue, happens, you may not be
>>> able to use the uninstall.
>>>
>>> Now, as for the one that Mr Urban is mentioning from 2002, yes, there
>>> was a line of code that was in an initial patch that caused an issue
>>> with 2002. Yes, he is right, and I personally experienced that. I also
>>> saw that within 2 weeks of this glitch showing up, they had the removal
>>> tool and a free download of the fixed insall version available.
>>>
>>> I still have McAfee on two machines, one physical and one Virtual. I
>>> hated McAfee 2005 because the virus updates failed more than they
>>> succeeded. Unlike Symantec, McAfee did not issue an apology when their
>>> updates were weeks later than everyone else and their updates failed
>>> regularly. It took them 4 months to fix it, and it was even worse in
>>> mixed networks (Apple and Windows Machines). For that reason, two
>>> companies that I was contracting too asked for alternative and I
>>> suggested NAV, Symantec Corporate Security (same core as NAV but with a
>>> Client-Server format) and TrendMicro. One group chose NAV and the
>>> other took TrendMicro and both were happy with the results.
>>>
>>> I just like people making truly informed decisions, no matter their
>>> choice. Just like if I sold them a car, I would tell them if the tires
>>> were worn or if the car had been tuned up in years. I did not make the
>>> product, I only test, sell and support them.
>>>
>>> To me, that is fun.
>>>
>>> ShadoShryke
>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>
>>>
>>> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:umSX7yOAKHA.4336@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>>>
>>>> I have no comment on Norton or other (AV) programs and utilities, but I
>>>> don't see any relationship between a removal utility and a "defective"
>>>> product.
>>>>
>>>> I personally see it as a "thoughtful" tool so users can use it as a
>>>> last resort which otherwise wouldn't be possible. A few application
>>>> providers have also followed the same by providing a removal utility
>>>> just in case something went terribly wrong (which is a case-by-case
>>>> scenario), and it's far better than "format and re-install".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:eKK43PMAKHA.4496@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>>> I ran Norton up until the 2002 versions (home products). After that
>>>>> there were just tooooo many problems on my computers, and on computers
>>>>> I repaired for others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find it amusing that Norton was the very FIRST company that had to
>>>>> supply a dedicated web download to remove their defective products!
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u32pDgLAKHA.2604@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> >"but anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>>>> >skeptical"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an obvious exaggeration, since that would mean from 1989 to
>>>>>> today, and until 2000, all of the successful tech that I knew had
>>>>>> Norton (Symantec) on the top of their list as the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it did not "blow up", another obvious exaggeration, because it
>>>>>> did not freeze up and lock up your computer, or fail use as a whole.
>>>>>> Instead it gummed up on that specific program and only restricted
>>>>>> that program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It occurs to me that maybe it found another security risk with that
>>>>>> program that McAfee did not catch. Or maybe, as with Cryptic
>>>>>> Studios, the software producer had something in their script that
>>>>>> conflicts with something that Trend settings protect. Or maybe that
>>>>>> program needed an additional porting that you did not catch and that
>>>>>> the software publisher did not supply to Trend Micro. This happens
>>>>>> all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the current PC market, there is no way to get completely seamless
>>>>>> operations with ever producers driver, scripts or program at the same
>>>>>> time. You can get close if intercompany relations and communications
>>>>>> are good, but not perfect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, I just passed on facts, and then said what I prefer to use,
>>>>>> and what I have used. Each of my posts have been mainly experience
>>>>>> and facts. I am not making a plug or pledge for anyone, just
>>>>>> offering information based on reproducable research and testing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ShadoShyrke
>>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u972Z7KAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> If TrendMicro doesn't "focus on home", they should tell Best Buy to
>>>>>>> stop installing it on new PCs with Vista Home Premium.
>>>>>>> It does suck because it disconnected my "trusted" program from the
>>>>>>> internet. If your coffee maker makes coffee but explodes if you use
>>>>>>> columbian beans while no other coffee maker does, it sucks as a
>>>>>>> product even if you personally never use columbian beans so you
>>>>>>> haven't blown it up yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again I said "I fortunately haven't had to work with Norton products
>>>>>>> lately", so hopefully for their sake it doesn't suck anymore, but
>>>>>>> anyone who has supported them for the past 2 decades is still
>>>>>>> skeptical. The last time I heard of someone running Norton it was
>>>>>>> conflicting with another program. We got new PCs for work from IBM
>>>>>>> with Norton installed. We uninstalled it and installed McAfee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> newsF74D9A4-0915-45BC-B762-F5DBE4B615CF@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>>> Um,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You do understand that I am a techie. I make my living on
>>>>>>>> supporting both home and corporate users and environments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something to note, TrendMicro focuses on business, not home. Norton
>>>>>>>> and Symantec are the same, Norton is their home product and
>>>>>>>> Symantec Securities is how they market their business products.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most of the techies that I work with in the industry do not talk
>>>>>>>> down Norton's. The people that talk down Norton's are mainly
>>>>>>>> gamers and game companies. Yet, since the 2003 versions, I have
>>>>>>>> not seen the issues that most of those companies and gamers
>>>>>>>> complain about. In testing on 16 different machine
>>>>>>>> configurations, WoW, Everquest2, Lineage2, Command and Conquer, Age
>>>>>>>> of Empires 2 & 3, Two Worlds, and even Maple Story had no issues.
>>>>>>>> Game that had issues: City of Heroes, who's publisher knew there
>>>>>>>> was a script change needed but prefered to tell users to turn off
>>>>>>>> their AV instead of fixing their script. It saved them programming
>>>>>>>> cost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TrendMicro does not suck, it just did not suit your needs and your
>>>>>>>> specific setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ShadoShryke
>>>>>>>> (AKA James Walker)
>>>>>>>> 15 years of Computer Support (home and business)
>>>>>>>> MSPP Registered, A+ Cert, MS Office Cert, BSIT: Information Systems
>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:u0zzboKAKHA.5780@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:2C9CF229-976A-4623-8716-39E3CEB2E73D@microsoft.com...
>>>>>>>>>> There are a number of companies/organizations that review AV
>>>>>>>>>> programs for overall efficiency, reliability, memory use,
>>>>>>>>>> guarantees and cost.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You might find it interesting that Norton and TrendMicro have
>>>>>>>>>> been in the top three for 4-5 years running now. Microsoft made
>>>>>>>>>> it into the top 10 this past year with One Live Care this past
>>>>>>>>>> year on two registers. McAfee has dropped to number 5 or lower on
>>>>>>>>>> 4 different registers in the past two years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TrendMicro sucks.
>>>>>>>>> My new laptop from Best Buy came with TrendMicro Internet Security
>>>>>>>>> installed (with a free 6 month subscription, after that you pay
>>>>>>>>> for updates).
>>>>>>>>> I tried to play a game on the internet and it let me play for a
>>>>>>>>> few minutes then disconnected me. I added the game program to
>>>>>>>>> it's "trusted programs" and it still disconnected me. I
>>>>>>>>> uninstalled it and installed McAfee (provided at no extra cost
>>>>>>>>> from my ISP) and haven't had any issues since.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I fortunately haven't had to mess with any Norton software lately
>>>>>>>>> but it's still the number one answer when you ask a techie "what
>>>>>>>>> AV program is most likely to conflict with other programs?" AV
>>>>>>>>> programs are useless if they're constantly asking the user what
>>>>>>>>> they should allow or if they're preventing a program you want to
>>>>>>>>> run from running properly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>

Eric · Jul 10, 2009

"ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42C576BC-DED7-45B8-9484-8B07A778955C@microsoft.com...
> You do realize that this response, did less for your cause.
>
> He was talking about the "time of play" parental controls. His comments
> were all towards that, not adult content, but I can understand your
> confusion.
>
So by "adult controls" you're saying he meant parental control for game
playing time, so you're attacking me ("did less for your cause"?) for not
having a clue what he's talking about, which still makes no sense because I
had hardly played for 5 minutes before TrendMicro disconnected the game.

> No worries. You want a "set and forget" system, not a "I control the
> features" AV. That was what Norton 360 and G-Data have gone in the
> direction of.
>
Yes. It's one thing if it's a server product a techie guy is supposed to
manage (where some good setup instructions should be provided anyhow) or if
there's advanced settings to make it be more particular, but you don't make
a product for an end user home system which by default blocks products they
want to allow. I couldn't even find a setting that could make it work. If
it works at all, it's very user unfriendly.

> McAfee did that as well and unfortunately sacrificed some security in the
> process. They are working hard to get that fixed, and I hope that they
> manage because competition in the market is good for everyone.
>
> Cheers!
>
> ShadoShyrke
> (AKA James Walker)
>
The internet by nature is unsecure. If someone really wants to break into
or bring down your system they'll find a way. The only way to truly be
secure is to get all ISPs to use the more secure protocols, which would
require a worldwide effort and is not likely to happen anytime soon. AV
programs should lock down your PC as much as possible, but their first
priority is to be user friendly. As far as I've seen, McAfee has done a
sufficient job at virus protection as well as an excellent job of not
hassling end users with things they shouldn't need to know about and not
breaking their other programs. I have seen McAfee forums and their biggest
issue seems to be the problems with pushing new versions to desktops on a
domain, which is a techie problem and doesn't concern end users.

Eric · Jul 10, 2009

If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with my
game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine since I
uninstalled TrendMicro.
If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which timeout
games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything when I
checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems a bit
ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
"blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of this
software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen saver,
and it's not a trial program. You can download the program yourself and see
how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the name of the program
and the name of the site it's connecting to. The program is a free download
and the game on the site is free to play.

<keepout@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2mqc55toqea4j4gj1a5df5kq31ns3hiv1g@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:30:46 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote:

>What a very strange response. I didn't notice any "adult controls" in
>TrendMicro Internet Security and I don't know why they would apply. It's
>not an "adult" game. It's a MUD. I was running MudMaster 2K6, connecting
>to . I shouldn't have any "adult" restrictions turned on
>unless you're saying it's a feature of TrendMicro and it treats everyone
>like a child by default, and I wouldn't need to take it up with my parents
>since I've been an adult for many years. Yes the game is configured
>correctly, it works just fine without TrendMicro installed. Apparently
I have no idea what your settings are. I offered an option that you might
not
have known about. If you're running Vista, it also has a ton of adult
controls
that limit things. But blaming trend for this problem makes no sense since
it
sounds like a configuration problem somewhere.

>TrendMicro was not configured correctly which is what makes it a really bad
>program. It cut off my game without warning even with the game program in
>it's "trusted programs" list and gave me no indication of how to configure
>it to work. It's like someone getting a new OS and having to figure out
>they need to change a registry key before they can view their picture
>files.
You sure it wasn't a screen saver doing the killing ? I watch my screen
saver
kick in all the time on SOME games. For some reason, I guess it just doesn't
tell the machine that something's running.
The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with killing it's
operation
after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic. Or something configured
wrong.
All trusted does is IGNORE that program.

Little Charlie · Jul 10, 2009

"Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
news:O8eaE5VAKHA.1340@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with
> my game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine
> since I uninstalled TrendMicro.
> If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which
> timeout games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything
> when I checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems a
> bit ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
> "blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
> message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
> just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of
> this software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen
> saver, and it's not a trial program. You can download the program
> yourself and see how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the
> name of the program and the name of the site it's connecting to. The
> program is a free download and the game on the site is free to play.
>
> <keepout@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:2mqc55toqea4j4gj1a5df5kq31ns3hiv1g@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:30:46 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com>
> wrote:
>
>>What a very strange response. I didn't notice any "adult controls" in
>>TrendMicro Internet Security and I don't know why they would apply. It's
>>not an "adult" game. It's a MUD. I was running MudMaster 2K6, connecting
>>to . I shouldn't have any "adult" restrictions turned on
>>unless you're saying it's a feature of TrendMicro and it treats everyone
>>like a child by default, and I wouldn't need to take it up with my parents
>>since I've been an adult for many years. Yes the game is configured
>>correctly, it works just fine without TrendMicro installed. Apparently
> I have no idea what your settings are. I offered an option that you might
> not
> have known about. If you're running Vista, it also has a ton of adult
> controls
> that limit things. But blaming trend for this problem makes no sense since
> it
> sounds like a configuration problem somewhere.
>
>>TrendMicro was not configured correctly which is what makes it a really
>>bad
>>program. It cut off my game without warning even with the game program in
>>it's "trusted programs" list and gave me no indication of how to configure
>>it to work. It's like someone getting a new OS and having to figure out
>>they need to change a registry key before they can view their picture
>>files.
> You sure it wasn't a screen saver doing the killing ? I watch my screen
> saver
> kick in all the time on SOME games. For some reason, I guess it just
> doesn't
> tell the machine that something's running.
> The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with killing it's
> operation
> after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic. Or something
> configured
> wrong.
> All trusted does is IGNORE that program.
>
>
Have been enjoying Microsoft Security Essentials BETA since it was made
available a few days ago. Plays well on Vista for me.
Previously used Avast Free version on Vista. Rumour is that Avast Free
version will soon be no more. I expect to stay with MSE once it goes to a
released version

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

None of my comments have been attacking you, I was just letting you know
that you snapped back at something that another person just simply said.
Both of you made wrong assumptions and it was about to turn into something
that was not intended.

Nor am I attacking McAfee, as they are a respectable company. They are not
the worst, they just don't rate in the best. If I have the choice and
chance to buy the best, then I will go for that. If I am comfortable with
a lower portion of the upper grade, then I go with that.

Each person makes their own choices based on their acceptance of the risks
involved. It is their right to make their own choice, and I just like to
pass on simple facts based on repeatable test results.

Yes, I have done my own testing on intentionally infesting machines with
viruses and trojan downloaders. McAfee is simpler in some cases, but in my
tests since 2005, McAfee has only rated at 68-72% efficiency because of it's
approach to active scan and updating. This is like putting a chain lock on
your door, it makes you feel safer, but is not necessarily as safe as a
deadbolt. Most home users don't have to worry about a hacker directly
attacking them, they need to worry about self prolifferating malware/viruses
that autosense for open ports and tag in.

I am a tech, my wife is not. She likes a 90% or better system with simple
controls. I gave her the choice to pick the one that she wanted on her
laptop two years ago. Her choice ended up being Norton 360 because it
handled it all behind the scenes and gives her an unobtrusive warning when
needed. She is using Vista Ultimate on an Acer Turion 64X2 laptop. We
added the Add-On pack (free) from Symantec to add protection features
against spam to her Outlook (she pulls her yahoo, hotmail and roadrunner
mail in to the one app so she doesn't have to open individual pages).

All instructions for working all applications now are in the Help. They
don't put manuals in with most software now, because the manual is on the
computer as soon as it installs. They pay writers to write them so that
they can be easy to use and understand by the average user.

Life is unsecure by nature. As they taught us in security training, "a lock
only keeps an generally honest person honest". This is obvious to anyone
that understands human nature. An unnecessary point in this discussion.

One of my 1Sgts always said " If your are going to go, go hard. Inertial
alone will carry you through most adervities in life." We all knew he meant
to go fully committed, not at the highest speed possible. There is always a
point of caution to be taken in everything, that way you have the chance to
correct errors in course as needed.

With that, since this seems to be a pointless "argument" that is off course
from the original responses and question (Which AntiVirus works Best with
Vista), I will let people read my statements and my background, and let you
carry on with your choices.

Have a great day!

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
news:%23msKhzVAKHA.1380@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
> "ShadoShryke" <greyhwk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42C576BC-DED7-45B8-9484-8B07A778955C@microsoft.com...
>> You do realize that this response, did less for your cause.
>>
>> He was talking about the "time of play" parental controls. His comments
>> were all towards that, not adult content, but I can understand your
>> confusion.
>>
> So by "adult controls" you're saying he meant parental control for game
> playing time, so you're attacking me ("did less for your cause"?) for not
> having a clue what he's talking about, which still makes no sense because
> I had hardly played for 5 minutes before TrendMicro disconnected the game.
>
>> No worries. You want a "set and forget" system, not a "I control the
>> features" AV. That was what Norton 360 and G-Data have gone in the
>> direction of.
>>
> Yes. It's one thing if it's a server product a techie guy is supposed to
> manage (where some good setup instructions should be provided anyhow) or
> if there's advanced settings to make it be more particular, but you don't
> make a product for an end user home system which by default blocks
> products they want to allow. I couldn't even find a setting that could
> make it work. If it works at all, it's very user unfriendly.
>
>> McAfee did that as well and unfortunately sacrificed some security in the
>> process. They are working hard to get that fixed, and I hope that they
>> manage because competition in the market is good for everyone.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> ShadoShyrke
>> (AKA James Walker)
>>
> The internet by nature is unsecure. If someone really wants to break into
> or bring down your system they'll find a way. The only way to truly be
> secure is to get all ISPs to use the more secure protocols, which would
> require a worldwide effort and is not likely to happen anytime soon. AV
> programs should lock down your PC as much as possible, but their first
> priority is to be user friendly. As far as I've seen, McAfee has done a
> sufficient job at virus protection as well as an excellent job of not
> hassling end users with things they shouldn't need to know about and not
> breaking their other programs. I have seen McAfee forums and their
> biggest issue seems to be the problems with pushing new versions to
> desktops on a domain, which is a techie problem and doesn't concern end
> users.
>
>

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

Yep,

Rumor has been out for over a year that Avast is looking at no longer doing
the long term Free version. They have been working on bringing their
products up to par with the leaders in the securities industry, and they now
have enough of a following to support charging for what they gave away free.

Most companies, when they get big enough, cannot survive if they provide
their most popular item free for long periods of time.

As for the Microsoft Essentials, that has been one of the fun things to
watch over the past few years as an MS Partner Program member. They have
provided a great alternative and I am hoping that they keep with it so that
it reaches the upper group of competitors within the next couple of years.
1care proved to be a good step, even though the betas were a little rough
(and broke other securities software installs). Forefront Security caught
on with many companies running on windows 2003 servers, and now the
Essentials group of products is promising to bring a good Security program
to the masses.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Little Charlie" <littlecharlie@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%23YAxgRWAKHA.5092@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
> news:O8eaE5VAKHA.1340@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with
>> my game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine
>> since I uninstalled TrendMicro.
>> If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which
>> timeout games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything
>> when I checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems
>> a bit ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
>> "blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
>> message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
>> just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of
>> this software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen
>> saver, and it's not a trial program. You can download the program
>> yourself and see how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the
>> name of the program and the name of the site it's connecting to. The
>> program is a free download and the game on the site is free to play.
>>
>> <keepout@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:2mqc55toqea4j4gj1a5df5kq31ns3hiv1g@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:30:46 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>What a very strange response. I didn't notice any "adult controls" in
>>>TrendMicro Internet Security and I don't know why they would apply. It's
>>>not an "adult" game. It's a MUD. I was running MudMaster 2K6,
>>>connecting
>>>to . I shouldn't have any "adult" restrictions turned on
>>>unless you're saying it's a feature of TrendMicro and it treats everyone
>>>like a child by default, and I wouldn't need to take it up with my
>>>parents
>>>since I've been an adult for many years. Yes the game is configured
>>>correctly, it works just fine without TrendMicro installed. Apparently
>> I have no idea what your settings are. I offered an option that you might
>> not
>> have known about. If you're running Vista, it also has a ton of adult
>> controls
>> that limit things. But blaming trend for this problem makes no sense
>> since it
>> sounds like a configuration problem somewhere.
>>
>>>TrendMicro was not configured correctly which is what makes it a really
>>>bad
>>>program. It cut off my game without warning even with the game program
>>>in
>>>it's "trusted programs" list and gave me no indication of how to
>>>configure
>>>it to work. It's like someone getting a new OS and having to figure out
>>>they need to change a registry key before they can view their picture
>>>files.
>> You sure it wasn't a screen saver doing the killing ? I watch my screen
>> saver
>> kick in all the time on SOME games. For some reason, I guess it just
>> doesn't
>> tell the machine that something's running.
>> The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with killing it's
>> operation
>> after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic. Or something
>> configured
>> wrong.
>> All trusted does is IGNORE that program.
>>
>>
> Have been enjoying Microsoft Security Essentials BETA since it was made
> available a few days ago. Plays well on Vista for me.
> Previously used Avast Free version on Vista. Rumour is that Avast Free
> version will soon be no more. I expect to stay with MSE once it goes to a
> released version

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

Simply, if the securities blocks all games or programs from using a feature
after adjusting settings, you blame the securities program. If it only
blocks one program, you blame the publisher of the program.

Atari put out a game with a bad security code on the CD. This caused the
game to not read in a group of CD/DVD-RWs (just RWs). Atari admitted their
error and stopped using that copyright security script and had a new one
worked up. A number of games delayed for a bit.

It was Atari's fault, not the CD/DVD OEM's fault.

That is all he was saying.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote in message
news:O8eaE5VAKHA.1340@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with
> my game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine
> since I uninstalled TrendMicro.
> If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which
> timeout games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything
> when I checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems a
> bit ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
> "blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
> message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
> just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of
> this software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen
> saver, and it's not a trial program. You can download the program
> yourself and see how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the
> name of the program and the name of the site it's connecting to. The
> program is a free download and the game on the site is free to play.
>
> <keepout@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:2mqc55toqea4j4gj1a5df5kq31ns3hiv1g@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:30:46 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com>
> wrote:
>
>>What a very strange response. I didn't notice any "adult controls" in
>>TrendMicro Internet Security and I don't know why they would apply. It's
>>not an "adult" game. It's a MUD. I was running MudMaster 2K6, connecting
>>to . I shouldn't have any "adult" restrictions turned on
>>unless you're saying it's a feature of TrendMicro and it treats everyone
>>like a child by default, and I wouldn't need to take it up with my parents
>>since I've been an adult for many years. Yes the game is configured
>>correctly, it works just fine without TrendMicro installed. Apparently
> I have no idea what your settings are. I offered an option that you might
> not
> have known about. If you're running Vista, it also has a ton of adult
> controls
> that limit things. But blaming trend for this problem makes no sense since
> it
> sounds like a configuration problem somewhere.
>
>>TrendMicro was not configured correctly which is what makes it a really
>>bad
>>program. It cut off my game without warning even with the game program in
>>it's "trusted programs" list and gave me no indication of how to configure
>>it to work. It's like someone getting a new OS and having to figure out
>>they need to change a registry key before they can view their picture
>>files.
> You sure it wasn't a screen saver doing the killing ? I watch my screen
> saver
> kick in all the time on SOME games. For some reason, I guess it just
> doesn't
> tell the machine that something's running.
> The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with killing it's
> operation
> after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic. Or something
> configured
> wrong.
> All trusted does is IGNORE that program.
>
>

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

Though I respect your opinion, a recommendation like this is a bit
overzealous.

Symantec is trusted by many large organizations, and has been trusted for
years. Norton had an issue with Norton Internet Securities 2002 as systems
and architecture was changing over, and that was resolved with a
downloadable install/patch. However, NAV has kept about a 90%+ rate of
catching viruses and securing systems. The only regular complaint was it's
system resource footprint, but it was the only one that was doing a solid
job of active scanning at tht time.

Now, many other products are coming up and showing themselves. Until the
last couple of years, NOD32 was not very apparent to the majority of the
market, and most of their claim to fame has been by their own postings and
advertisment. I want to see if they stay in the top 10 with group that
focus on systems security for more than a couple of years. So far, only
Kapersky, TrendMicro, McAfee and Symantec/Norton have done that for more
than 3 years. I am looking forward to seeing how these new groups like
G-Data (who's 2010 AV is looking promising), and Microsoft (Security
Essentials) do in the market.

Heck, the most attacked computers in the world are the US Federal systems,
and they use Symantec.

Now, it is up to each person to find what they are most comfortable with, by
their own risk assessment. Give them options, give them facts, tell them
why you don't like something, but recommending that people stay away from a
product line when you have an MVP tag could get a person nailed for slander.

I don't know if you can afford it, but I can't. I don't want to make up
for a business's assessed losses, not with lawyers today.

eeeesh....

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:vuc455p5tvnj8d9udppo16emic454dra9n@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:00:08 GMT, Keith <kilowattradio@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2009-07-06, Brandon Mahler <mahlerbrandon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Just wondering
>>
>> I use Noron Anti-virus 2009 with no problems at all.
>
>
> Many people I trust have reported that NAV 2009 is considerably better
> than earlier versions. Although they may be right, my view is still
> that given Symantec's terrible products and terrible reputation in the
> recent past, I will stay extremely skeptical of anything they do for a
> considerable period of time.
>
> Let me also point out that with almost any poor product of almost any
> type, not everyone experiences problems every time they use it. In
> fact, I used to be a NAV user myself (several older versions), and
> since, like you, I had experienced no problems with it, I generally
> pooh-poohed the advice of those who told me how terrible it was. But
> when I saw others experiencing the problems with it, and started
> having such problems myself, I very quickly changed my views on it.
>
> I continue to recommend that everyone stay as far away as possible
> from all Symantec/Norton products.
>
>
> --
> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

whs,

Once again, I appreciate your look at things. Balanced is the best,
especially as a professional.

I understand why some people feel this way, but most of the anti-McAfee and
Norton/Symantec came from the gaming crowds from 2001 to 2005. A lot of
companies jumped on the MMO and Online bandwagon to get in on the new craze,
and did not account for increased security needs as the internet use and
cross platform gaming kicked to a high in record time.

Symantec and McAfee have been industry leaders since the early 90s and
continue to be. They have both bounced back and forth in the top 10 most
secure software lists, but neither have dropped completely out. Now, there
are lots of free solutions, trying to make a name so that they can start
charging to support their work, but many of them have holes that some people
may never encounter, while others will be dreading for the rest of their
lives.

On AOL, I remember when AOL was the service to have become it had more than
Prodigy and was more reliable than CompuServe. Then they grew too fast,
tried to put to much in and started charging for everything. Most of the
people like myself, that used them when they were still a fancy BBS and not
a ISP, left them during that time. Now they have found balance again in a
changed world, but some people are stuck in the past.

Of course, they do not identify WHAT AOL service, ISP, Messenger, or
Toolbar. Personally, I don't use any add-in toolbar systems because of the
resources and openings they leave. They were originally made for older
browsers that did not have a lot of features, and now most of those features
are in the browsers and the bars are just advertisement tools for the
originating publisher.

And yes, the majority of Vista complaints on the net were by those that did
not like the fact that they could not do the pirating of that OS, or that
did not like change. I got to participate in an experiement based on the
Mojave experience by MS and watched more people that "hated Vista" walk out
with copies of Vista by the end. They had heard all the hype and blew it
off, and even repeated how bad it was, until they sat for 10-30 minutes and
messed with it themselves.

Each person needs to look at what is out there, go by current facts and long
term proof and then make a decision based on that.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"whs" <guest@unknown-email.com> wrote in message
news:b5b0a3e733becd255fb9802c2e1e3c0e@nntp-gateway.com...
>
> Richard Urban;1083234 Wrote:
>> You would think that after all these years of many of us bad mouthing
>> their
>> products that McAfee and Norton/Symantec would really be pissed at us.
>> <grin>
>>
>> But I totally agree with you. They are worse than the malware they try
>> to
>> protect you from - and almost as bad as having AOL on your computer.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Richard Urban
>> Microsoft MVP
>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>
>>
>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@xxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:j4a4559v8nmla5cvuvnuckj86is1qrhdfe@xxxxxx> > >
>> > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:09:17 -0800, "Brandon Mahler"
>> > > <mahlerbrandon@xxxxxx> wrote:
>> > >> > > > >
>> > > >> Just wondering> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > It's not a matter of which works best with *Vista*, it's simply a
>> > > matter of which is the best anti-virus program.
>> > >
>> > > If you are willing to pay for a product, the best anti-virus
>> > program
>> > > is NOD32. If you want a free one, I recommend Avast, which is not
>> > > quite as good as NOD32, but still a good one.
>> > >
>> > > And by the way, the two worst products are perhaps those that are
>> > best
>> > > known, McAfee (next to worst) and Norton (worst).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience
>> > > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > >
>
> Richard and Ken,
>
> I am somewhat disturbed by your judgements. Both of you being MVP's I
> would have expected a more balanced report. I am using Norton IS09 and
> Norton Ghost since years and they have always done a good job for me.
> Especially the Norton IS09 is a real step forward and there should be
> little complaints about it. I also run Kaspersky IS09 on other systems -
> and that works well too.
> As far as AOL is concerned, I made the same experience. There are very
> little complaints. If I compare that to all the problems other people
> have with other mail services, I think AOL does a great job. Just follow
> the threads on the various forums - half of them are about problems with
> mail. My wife uses AOL exclusively. She never used another browser - and
> that since years. She has always been able to do her jobs and we never
> had to repair or reinstall AOL on her systems.
> I think the hype about Norton and AOL is similar as some people's hype
> about Vista. I usually comes from people who have not used the products
> and go by hearsay. The result you have seen with the Mojave project that
> MS launched last year. Those dummies really had egg all over their face.
>
>
> --
> whs

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

15 years ago. 1994. The most trusted name in AV solutions was Norton AV.
SystemWorks was in direct competition with PCTools, and it was all a
personal preference thing for users. McAfee was hitting the ground running,
but was not highly recognized until 1996. BitDefender and a couple of
others were out there, and given nods of respect because they had good
products.

1998, Norton AV and Black Ice took the top ratings of reliability against
threats in 5 different magazines, including MaximumPC. Norton IS was rated
the best Internet Security package, with McAfee hitting right behind it,
almost tied.

End of 2002/Beginning of 2003, Norton IS 2001 was not fully functional with
the new XP Pro security fix patches. Norton releases the removal tool, and
provides a fully functional download to fix the issue. Microsoft and
Norton acknowledge the clash. McAfee gets a larger attention for 2 years.
Norton decides to keep the uninstall tool for those that chose to not
upgrade to another version of their system. McAfee and other expect that
their customers will keep coming back.

2003 Kapersky gets new notice, AVG free is becoming the most popular
download, along with Adaware and Spybot S&D. Most AVG users find that they
need to use multiple tools to keep safe. Two separate labs, and Maximum PC
run a test on AVG. Though unintrusive to most users, AVG proves to miss
12-28% of the known virus and malware. Running Bit Defender, McAfee and NAV
after AVG shows that all catch what AVG missed.

2004 Panda is making news, along with a couple of others. They don't stay
in the limelite very long due to issues with long term reliability.

Bit Defender approaches the Gamer's concerns with planning a Gamer Mode, now
found in their products.

So, here is the breakdown as I see it.

Gamers - get Bit Defener or run with AVG with a backed up drive image
Office and home users that are not playing lots of online games, and that
want the longest proven solutions-- chose Norton/Symantec, McAfee, Bit
Defender, or the solution that tickles your happy places.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O6d8Xaw$JHA.1248@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>A balanced report?
>
> I guess you have not been in these news groups for very long. Going back
> to Windows 95 there have been 10's of thousands of complaints of people
> having problems with the mentioned manufacturers home/consumer products.
>
> People place them on their computers and find, after having nothing but
> trouble, that they can't uninstall them. Symantec was the first company I
> know of that had to come up with a special download just to get the crap
> off of the computer. Even then it left a load of crap that you had to
> manually edit out. Much like AOL, except AOL did not have a special
> uninstaller.
>
> You can't balance McAfee and Symantec against others because the balance
> is way tipped toward almost anything else.
>
> Granted, the 2009 Symantec products "seem" to be a bit better but their
> products are fighting about 15 years, or so, of miserable performance upon
> being installed on peoples computers.
>
> --
>
> Richard Urban
> Microsoft MVP
> Windows Desktop Experience
>
>
> "whs" <guest@unknown-email.com> wrote in message
> news:b5b0a3e733becd255fb9802c2e1e3c0e@nntp-gateway.com...
>>
>> Richard Urban;1083234 Wrote:
>>> You would think that after all these years of many of us bad mouthing
>>> their
>>> products that McAfee and Norton/Symantec would really be pissed at us.
>>> <grin>
>>>
>>> But I totally agree with you. They are worse than the malware they try
>>> to
>>> protect you from - and almost as bad as having AOL on your computer.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>> Microsoft MVP
>>> Windows Desktop Experience
>>>
>>>
>>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@xxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:j4a4559v8nmla5cvuvnuckj86is1qrhdfe@xxxxxx> > >
>>> > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:09:17 -0800, "Brandon Mahler"
>>> > > <mahlerbrandon@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>> > >> > > > >
>>> > > >> Just wondering> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > It's not a matter of which works best with *Vista*, it's simply a
>>> > > matter of which is the best anti-virus program.
>>> > >
>>> > > If you are willing to pay for a product, the best anti-virus
>>> > program
>>> > > is NOD32. If you want a free one, I recommend Avast, which is not
>>> > > quite as good as NOD32, but still a good one.
>>> > >
>>> > > And by the way, the two worst products are perhaps those that are
>>> > best
>>> > > known, McAfee (next to worst) and Norton (worst).
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience
>>> > > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > >
>>
>> Richard and Ken,
>>
>> I am somewhat disturbed by your judgements. Both of you being MVP's I
>> would have expected a more balanced report. I am using Norton IS09 and
>> Norton Ghost since years and they have always done a good job for me.
>> Especially the Norton IS09 is a real step forward and there should be
>> little complaints about it. I also run Kaspersky IS09 on other systems -
>> and that works well too.
>> As far as AOL is concerned, I made the same experience. There are very
>> little complaints. If I compare that to all the problems other people
>> have with other mail services, I think AOL does a great job. Just follow
>> the threads on the various forums - half of them are about problems with
>> mail. My wife uses AOL exclusively. She never used another browser - and
>> that since years. She has always been able to do her jobs and we never
>> had to repair or reinstall AOL on her systems.
>> I think the hype about Norton and AOL is similar as some people's hype
>> about Vista. I usually comes from people who have not used the products
>> and go by hearsay. The result you have seen with the Mojave project that
>> MS launched last year. Those dummies really had egg all over their face.
>>
>>
>> --
>> whs
>

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

Ooo. Good site. I forgot that one.
Thanks, whs.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"whs" <guest@unknown-email.com> wrote in message
news:e148945f969cfae9309469d2133cdc1e@nntp-gateway.com...
>
> Brandon Mahler;1082599 Wrote:
>> Just wondering
>
> There is no "Best". At best, there is a "Best of the month". You can
> check this website for comparisons: 'AV-Comparatives - Independent Tests
> of Anti-Virus Software - Welcome to AV-Comparatives.org'
> ()
>
>
> --
> whs

keepout@yahoo.com.invalid · Jul 10, 2009

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:59:30 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com> wrote:

>If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with my
>game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine since I
>uninstalled TrendMicro.
>If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which timeout
>games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything when I
>checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems a bit
>ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
>"blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
>message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
>just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of this
>software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen saver, 

I used Trend for more than 10 years. I'd say I know it pretty well. This timing
out thing has to be a configuration problem. That's the end of it.

>and it's not a trial program. You can download the program yourself and see 
doesn't matter Trends trial is fully functional for the length of the trial as
is MOST virus software. Cripple ware is pretty much the realm of useless
software.

>how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the name of the program
>and the name of the site it's connecting to. The program is a free download
>and the game on the site is free to play.
Browsing KNOWN web pages is about my stretch. I have every bit of paranoia
software I own enabled. I don't look for problems.
And definitely not going to visit a web site inhabited by kids trying to make a
name for themselves.

Hmm mm.. That just might be why trend is shutting down after x minutes.
You've sat on the SAME ISP long enough for the kiddies to locate you, and
attack. And Trend noticed it and put up a block. IOW Trend did what it was
intended to. If you want to go further, turn on all of the warnings for
everything trend blocks. Can be EXTREMELY annoying, but for a novice with the
program, until you RECOGNIZE a program asking for access, you should let Trend
do it's job. Just get ready for constant warnings for a week or two until you
know what's happening.

Here's what is missing from your post. Trend doesn't lock you out from the web
after x minutes. It only locks you out of that game after x minutes. You see
what I'm saying ? Trends working, you just don't know WHY it doesn't like that
online game. Turning on all of Trends bells and whistles, and examining the
firewall logs for that time period should tell you EXACTLY why it blocked
access to that game. Learning trend can take some effort on your part.

ShadoShryke · Jul 10, 2009

CA eTrust AV had this too, if you took the link from the Microsoft Security
Solutions Suggestions site (linked earlier in this thread cluster).

I think now they are only 3-6 months free, and Avast is now heading towards
charging too. Companies in doing business in America can only give out free
for so long before it impacts their production or products.

ShadoShryke
(AKA James Walker)

"Jim" <bojimbo261@aol.com> wrote in message
news:llj4555nkjf19tapf004lh6k3e5gtdq42j@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:09:17 -0800, "Brandon Mahler"
> <mahlerbrandon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Just wondering
>
> Whichever one(s) you feel happy with . I use free Avast ( audio and
> visual warning ) , used to use AVG but had trouble with the updates .
> Avast has free registration , and it`s registration every year ( still
> free though )

Eric · Jul 10, 2009

IF TrendMicro works at all, the problem is it doesn't work at all by
default. It disconnected an internet game from it's server without asking
me or telling me why. I couldn't find anything in the configuration to fix
it, and I shouldn't have to. Where's the pop up window warning me that it
found a problem and telling me why it thinks I should stop playing? I
shouldn't have to find a configuration page to turn ON that bell/whistle.

Which "website inhabited by kids" are you referring to? The game is hosted
by a reputable company. If you're saying you don't play interactive games
because it allows some access to your PC from anyone who can hack the game
server, that's your problem. If you live with that sort of fear, don't
connect to the internet at all because a sophisticated enough hacker could
be able to find a way to access any connected machine.

When you said, "The 'trusted program' shouldn't have a thing to do with
killing it's operation after x minutes. That's a 'Trial annoyware' tactic.
Or something configured wrong.", I thought you were saying the program
getting blocked was a trial program. Now you're talking about a difference
with the AV program because it's a trial version? The TrendMicro was a
trial program in that I got a free subscription for updates which was only
good for 6 months. Aside from that I didn't think there were other
versions.

<keepout@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2vpe55tvedj6t0hkb8cg5jfrug461lcal1@4ax.com...
On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:59:30 -0400, "Eric" <someone@idontwantspam.com>
wrote:

>If you're suggesting my OS has settings which would cause a problem with my
>game, you're clueless, since I already said the game works just fine since
>I
>uninstalled TrendMicro.
>If by adult controls you mean TrendMicro has parental controls which
>timeout
>games after a very short time by default, I didn't see anything when I
>checked it's configuration trying to get it to work, and it seems a bit
>ridiculous to me that such a thing would be enabled by default.
>"blaming trend makes no sense"? What would you blame when my game gets a
>message "connection terminated" after a few minutes of playing, and works
>just fine after uninstalling your TrendMicro program? Your defense of this
>software is what makes no sense. It has nothing to do with a screen saver,

I used Trend for more than 10 years. I'd say I know it pretty well. This
timing
out thing has to be a configuration problem. That's the end of it.

>and it's not a trial program. You can download the program yourself and
>see
doesn't matter Trends trial is fully functional for the length of the trial
as
is MOST virus software. Cripple ware is pretty much the realm of useless
software.

>how TrendMicro terminates it. I already told you the name of the program
>and the name of the site it's connecting to. The program is a free
>download
>and the game on the site is free to play.
Browsing KNOWN web pages is about my stretch. I have every bit of paranoia
software I own enabled. I don't look for problems.
And definitely not going to visit a web site inhabited by kids trying to
make a
name for themselves.

Hmm mm.. That just might be why trend is shutting down after x minutes.
You've sat on the SAME ISP long enough for the kiddies to locate you, and
attack. And Trend noticed it and put up a block. IOW Trend did what it was
intended to. If you want to go further, turn on all of the warnings for
everything trend blocks. Can be EXTREMELY annoying, but for a novice with
the
program, until you RECOGNIZE a program asking for access, you should let
Trend
do it's job. Just get ready for constant warnings for a week or two until
you
know what's happening.

Here's what is missing from your post. Trend doesn't lock you out from the
web
after x minutes. It only locks you out of that game after x minutes. You see
what I'm saying ? Trends working, you just don't know WHY it doesn't like
that
online game. Turning on all of Trends bells and whistles, and examining the
firewall logs for that time period should tell you EXACTLY why it blocked
access to that game. Learning trend can take some effort on your part.

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